tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13684790.post2774159686140432732..comments2023-11-05T05:28:34.444-07:00Comments on Voice of Reason: Back to our regularly scheduled brain-explodingNemesishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00110470182822628791noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13684790.post-15586792890141847242009-06-07T09:35:43.735-06:002009-06-07T09:35:43.735-06:00Come on...its sad that you all got so bent out of ...Come on...its sad that you all got so bent out of shape over someone else. Deal with your own lives and when someone says something you dont like laugh and move on. Dont stew and get all angry and bitter. Does a bad object lesson really bother you to the point of "raising hell". Evaluate your life if it does.swim worldnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13684790.post-58153878164234886362007-09-20T17:18:00.000-06:002007-09-20T17:18:00.000-06:00Let's take a cue from the Prophet; he probably kno...Let's take a cue from the Prophet; he probably knows what he's talking about.<BR/><BR/>A couple days ago (18-SEPT-07), President Hinckley gave a talk at a BYU devotional. He mentioned that he had recently watched as the Key Bank building in downtown SLC was detonated. He likened this to unchastity saying, "That, my friends, is the story of so many lives. We nurture them ever so carefully over a period of years. Then we find ourselves in highly charged circumstances. Mistakes are made. Chastity is compromised. There is an implosion, and a ball of dust is all that is left."<BR/><BR/>HOWEVER:<BR/>After telling a sad story about a young couple that screwed up, he said, "Now, hearkening back to the illustration of the tower that collapsed, I remind you that in its place will be constructed a new and beautiful building. Similarly, those who have transgressed can turn to their Redeemer, our Savior Jesus Christ, and, through the power of His Atonement, be made clean and new again."<BR/><BR/>TAKE A LESSON, RS/YW INSTRUCTORS!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13684790.post-69724022853574484322007-09-12T23:40:00.000-06:002007-09-12T23:40:00.000-06:00Wow, quite the string of comments here. I have to ...Wow, quite the string of comments here. <BR/><BR/>I have to say that when us brothers get the chastity lessons, analogies generally aren't part of the lesson. Generally we talk about practical do's and don't's and I've had a few bishops who didn't hesitate to spell things out in no uncertain terms.<BR/><BR/>As for reasons why guys don't date, first, don't assume that guys are going to be honest with the stake president's wife as to why they don't date. I can only speak for myself, but I generally only like to ask people on a date when a) I have had positive interactions with them, b) I don't feel like I would have to shoot myself if I were trapped in a car with them and had to make conversation with them for more than 10 minutes, c) I find them sufficiently attractive, d) I get the impression they'd be interested in going on a date with me.<BR/><BR/>And as to why the stake president's wife thought she needed to share the reasons the guys gave for not dating more to the sisters...maybe she thought you would be more likely to do something about than the guys. In general, most guys seem to feel like they date enough, so it might be tough to give them tips on how to date more.<BR/><BR/>And finally, to "anonymous" who is worried about the colossal waste of time that is video games, I think that any hobby can be a waste of time if you aren't careful, but I'm uncertain as to why video games attract such fiery wrath from LDS women. Is it just that they often are played for long hours? or is there an inherent hatred for video games? You don't hear LDS men decrying "talking on the phone" or "scrapbooking" or "reading Jack Weyland novels" as being a colossal waste of time. Your sons may have a problem balancing their time, but there are plenty of ways to waste time just as easily as video games.jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13828036362454812901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13684790.post-27086100391445765432007-09-12T15:41:00.000-06:002007-09-12T15:41:00.000-06:00i want so badly to comment on how inappropriate al...i want so badly to comment on how inappropriate all these analogies are but i've got to pick my jaw up off of the ground first. WOW! <BR/>repentance is just far, far too sacred a topic to reduce to an object lesson! my soul hurts for everyone who has misconceptions about the Atonement because of something they learned in church (of all places!). <BR/>great post & great commentscropstarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15656358346726200231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13684790.post-71479502821435258192007-09-10T09:16:00.000-06:002007-09-10T09:16:00.000-06:00Thanks, Blackjazz. And I agree with you--I think t...Thanks, Blackjazz. And I agree with you--I think there is a way to teach real complete repentance without giving people the idea that repentance offers them some sort of "have your cake and eat it too" scenario. Speaking about regret and remorse seems like a pretty straightforward way to do that.Nemesishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00110470182822628791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13684790.post-52038544193950681702007-09-09T23:00:00.000-06:002007-09-09T23:00:00.000-06:00I knew a bishop who taught a YSA fireside using an...I knew a bishop who taught a YSA fireside using an wholly inappropriate analogy. (Sorry if that shakes anybody's testimony!)<BR/><BR/>He used a jug of clean water and dropped some ink into it. Soon the ink was dispersed through the water, making it "dirty". He then dropped in some bleach. The bleach quickly "cleaned" the water but there was still a residual scum on the surface. What he was saying was that through repentance we can be cleaned, but it still won't be the same as if the sin had not been committed.<BR/><BR/>What happened to "and I the Lord will remember them no more"?<BR/><BR/>Sorry, but like the chewing gum it's an example of how to teach false doctrine using a stupid (but highly memorable) analogy.<BR/><BR/>I think he was trying to overcome the notion that it was OK to sin because afterwards you can just repent and it'll all be fixed. So, I have some sympathy - but it doesn't excuse teaching something that's not true. I think it's far better simply to explain that repentance involves regret - a regret that is strong enough to wish you had not committed the sin.blackjazzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18053535570328915580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13684790.post-3993048084643702802007-09-08T09:03:00.000-06:002007-09-08T09:03:00.000-06:00kelli: I think the scene is played out with his mo...kelli: I think the scene is played out with his mother instead, so similar but not exactly the same. I hope your husband finds his testimony of the Atonement before your kids get old enough to make any real mistakes, or he might just do the 'scarring for life' thing. And that's not nice.<BR/><BR/>Suzie2: wow, that was vehement. What did Weyland ever do to you? :)choshahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07724444970503533654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13684790.post-8890925973250978692007-09-08T00:48:00.000-06:002007-09-08T00:48:00.000-06:00Nooooo!!!! Not Jack Weyland!!!!!I DESPISE THAT MA...Nooooo!!!! Not Jack Weyland!!!!!<BR/><BR/>I DESPISE THAT MAN! I don't care if that's a good example -NOOOOO! <BR/><BR/>Before: Well put. I think I worry too much about this type of blog conversation turning into one of those "who has it worst" kind of scenarios, so I'm much too quick to try to "even the score." Because it's always a waste of time seeing who rates the highest in the Top Ten Charts of Pain. ;)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13684790.post-44681048570164947542007-09-07T23:04:00.000-06:002007-09-07T23:04:00.000-06:00"This all reminds me of that book, Charly. I LOVE ..."This all reminds me of that book, Charly. I LOVE that scene where he goes to the bishop's house (after reacting badly when she explains that she has a sexual history) and asks how he could have approved her temple recommend and the bishop asks for HIS recommend and rips it up, because he clearly doesn't have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ. Best reality check ever!"<BR/>Is this scene in the movie of Charly? I would love to watch it with my husband, because we're in the same situation, only I've been dealing with his "issues with my past" for 6 1/2 years of marriage and 2 kids.Kellihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12644791913290644424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13684790.post-39970960268116230812007-09-07T10:16:00.000-06:002007-09-07T10:16:00.000-06:00I am so, so sorry that girls have to put up with c...I am so, so sorry that girls have to put up with crappy lessons like this. The most we guys ever got was "Stay away from porn" and "If you see a hot girl and your thoughts stray, sing a hymn."<BR/><BR/>Dating was always a pain for me. As a scrawny, nerdy, kind of awkward guy, it was hard for me to find girls who didn't want to chew their arm off to get away from a date with me. So I only asked girls out when I thought that maybe the date would be an enjoyable experience.<BR/><BR/>By the way, congratulations to all girls who have learned how to politely say "No thank you" when a guy asks you out and you aren't interested in him. It is SO refreshing and so much better than going on a miserable date or fooling yourself into thinking that a girl really likes you and then facing a REAL rejection later on.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04323568112711824064noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13684790.post-35674001723638663412007-09-07T10:11:00.000-06:002007-09-07T10:11:00.000-06:00Wow. This is evidence about why it's also really i...Wow. This is evidence about why it's also really important to teach your children in your home because even at church, they can get the wrong idea.Cicadahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14992280321382438701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13684790.post-60952001481907394992007-09-07T09:44:00.000-06:002007-09-07T09:44:00.000-06:00This all reminds me of that book, Charly. I LOVE t...This all reminds me of that book, Charly. I LOVE that scene where he goes to the bishop's house (after reacting badly when she explains that she has a sexual history) and asks how he could have approved her temple recommend and the bishop asks for HIS recommend and rips it up, because he clearly doesn't have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ. Best reality check ever!<BR/><BR/>And that chewing gum object lesson is not just a Utah thing. I had that lesson in YW in Australia, over 20 years ago. Haven't learned much over the years, have we? <BR/><BR/>Those lessons set up chastity as an all-or-nothing case. You're either a pristine rose, or you're trash. The problem is that once someone crosses that line, it's just too easy for them to feel like nothing they do matters any more, because they feel like they've already failed and can never get back what they lost. And it's just not true. Which is why I agree so much with what you said, that a lesson about any kind of sin should never be taught without teaching about the Atonement as well. People are not chewing gum, and they're not brownies, and they're not roses. People are not irredeemable, and they should never be made to feel like they are.choshahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07724444970503533654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13684790.post-2010131066493654492007-09-07T09:10:00.000-06:002007-09-07T09:10:00.000-06:00Simply shakes head in utter disappointment.Simply shakes head in utter disappointment.Suzie1https://www.blogger.com/profile/10175442864465490592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13684790.post-27599896038668403922007-09-07T01:29:00.000-06:002007-09-07T01:29:00.000-06:00Your mom agrees with you but is going to wash your...Your mom agrees with you but is going to wash your mouth out with soap for using the "w" word!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13684790.post-84957546019838992102007-09-07T01:06:00.000-06:002007-09-07T01:06:00.000-06:00RE: Suzie2I didn't want to imply anything other th...RE: Suzie2<BR/><BR/>I didn't want to imply anything other than that guys have more reasons for not asking girls out besides just being too lazy, or too busy, or too uninterested.<BR/><BR/>From what I've seen (and I have sufficient sisters without even looking at friends), girls are far harsher on themselves than guys are. (Which is not to say that guys have no feelings.)<BR/><BR/>I've heard some analogies similar to the... interesting ones describe here. I'm happy to report that most of these sound a bit more... extreme than the ones I've heard.<BR/><BR/>Amen to the smoker lesson. IIRC, the lesson was "inasmuch as ye have done it unto the *least* of these". :)<BR/><BR/>And honestly, just because one person's mistakes are more visible doesn't make them any worse then someone whose mistakes are internal and hidden. I was raised in a fairly sheltered environment by pretty stinkin conservative parents -- but they were smart enough to (thankfully) teach their children that people who don't believe the same thing are not bad.<BR/><BR/>Oh... and as for the gum, the evidence would suggest that there is a large population of people who WOULD want the gum. If your only reason for not having sex is so a future partner will find you attractive... you probably aren't going to live up to that person's standards anyway.<BR/><BR/>---------------<BR/><BR/>An analogies I remember that isn't quite as bad:<BR/>Sex is like an apple. If you eat it before it's ripe, you will probably get a tummy ache.<BR/><BR/>Of course, that's a John Bytheway, so I refuse to take credit/blame for it.<BR/><BR/>(He also said getting married is like a piano duet. No matter how good you are or how much you practice, you can't make it happen by yourself. Sometimes you just have to wait for a partner to sit down and play the duet with you.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13684790.post-53190901584867569052007-09-06T23:29:00.000-06:002007-09-06T23:29:00.000-06:00And yes, I'm agreeing with what people are saying ...And yes, I'm agreeing with what people are saying about the Atonement. I think we're getting so caught up in the "Just don't do it" campaign that we're leaving the Savior out of the equation--and he should <I>always</I> be in it. It's like, "Well, just don't mess up and we won't have to worry about that part." I think you do get a lot of people feeling like He's only there for <I>other</I> people, and not for someone as horrible and bad as they themselves are.Nemesishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00110470182822628791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13684790.post-8128679731731151132007-09-06T23:26:00.000-06:002007-09-06T23:26:00.000-06:00Saxon and Before, I'm glad you represented the rig...Saxon and Before, I'm glad you represented the right-thinking males for us. And I think you're pointing out some really true things. One of the reasons these lessons are starting to feel so silly to me is that yeah, we can talk about this stuff til we're blue in the face, but there probably aren't any easy "wear more makeup" or "just be braver" solutions left. <BR/><BR/>It seems like what it's coming down to is more about simple timing. And yes, I'm sure it helps when we put ourselves out there and are willing to risk being hurt or ignored (or to risk hurting others, as the case may be). But this gets harder and harder the longer we do it and the more scar tissue that forms.Nemesishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00110470182822628791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13684790.post-78556574449306080862007-09-06T22:05:00.000-06:002007-09-06T22:05:00.000-06:00One other thought: This is yet another example of...One other thought: This is yet another example of how under-educated many of us truly are about the purpose and function of the Atonement. Many of us simply do not get it. And because of that, there is many a downfall for otherwise good and wonderful people in our church. Breaks my heart.Maryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01881149102981381456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13684790.post-88794954587428124342007-09-06T22:00:00.000-06:002007-09-06T22:00:00.000-06:00My mother-in-law was in a RS chastity lesson where...My mother-in-law was in a RS chastity lesson where they used the kleenex analogy. No one else wants you if someone's already used you. She got up, put the fear of God in that teacher, and then went on to testify of the atonement.<BR/><BR/>And that's why she rocks!Natalie Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06881802413940621367noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13684790.post-8322609100702396782007-09-06T21:55:00.000-06:002007-09-06T21:55:00.000-06:00Nem, I'm sitting here on my bed with the laptop ro...Nem, I'm sitting here on my bed with the laptop roaring. "dirty, used, whore." I mean, I love you. Never met you. I love you.<BR/><BR/>This isn't a dating object lesson per se, but my friend told me of a YW lesson where the teacher held up a picture of someone smoking. She asked each girl to come up and stab a thumbtack through the smoking person's picture. (Yeah, my eyebrow went up too, first time I heard this.) Once everyone had done so, she turns the picture around to show another picture on the backside. A picture of Jesus.<BR/><BR/>The Lesson: when you stab smokers, you stab Jesus. Now go to your rooms and think bad thoughts about yourself.Maryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01881149102981381456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13684790.post-83668806466994484632007-09-06T21:54:00.000-06:002007-09-06T21:54:00.000-06:00Before -Recently I have been putting myself on a l...Before -Recently I have been putting myself on a line and definitely been trying to technically ask some guys out -the rejection is horrible, terrible, and embarrassing...however, it passes, and you start over again. <BR/><BR/>It's a vicious cycle, and I commend any guy that has the guts to actually ask me or one of my friends out. <BR/><BR/>But a lot of us women face rejection of another kind -being ignored. We send out a little flirt here and there, but we never get asked out. Just another way to chip away at the ego.<BR/><BR/>There's this huge difficulty in deciphering whether or not you're in a particular person's league...it's a tricky thing, since 95% of most people seem to think of themselves as being in a better league than they really are -or that they deserve a step up. <BR/><BR/>It's a strange class system that is generated by appearances, money, and social status. <BR/><BR/>For quite some time I really felt that we women had it the worst -I would go years without having a single date, or even a fake kind of hang out date. I was bitter and depressed, and I picked myself apart until there was practically nothing left, because I never felt worthy enough for a good Mormon guy. <BR/><BR/>Now in my ultimate age and wisdom, I think it's EQUAL. I really do. It's an even score, if you ask me. <BR/><BR/>The pressures are different, but the suckiness even, imho.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13684790.post-85423566105728608302007-09-06T21:28:00.000-06:002007-09-06T21:28:00.000-06:00A note from the flip-side:Being a guy who was rais...A note from the flip-side:<BR/><BR/>Being a guy who was raised in the Church, I have the opposite complaint. While my sisters complain about getting nothing but lecture after lecture about chastity, you wanna know when I got my FIRST lesson on chastity? ON MY MISSION! Serving in Idaho, I went to a Gospel Principles class one Sunday and got the talk--FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME.<BR/><BR/>Now if THAT doesn't set off fireworks in your brain, then--uh--well, I'm too tired to expatiate on it, so just use your imagination.<BR/><BR/>[Just so you know, I'm Th'little brother]Schmetterlinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10188647121762378788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13684790.post-70655501881592955482007-09-06T20:55:00.000-06:002007-09-06T20:55:00.000-06:00There are a lot of reasons guys don't ask girls ou...There are a lot of reasons guys don't ask girls out.<BR/><BR/>Ever had someone say something bad about you? Not fun right?<BR/><BR/>Well, try this one (for 10 or 15 years). You like a girl. You ask the girl out. Girl says "no thanks". Now if you're not interested, that's what you ladies SHOULD say (leading a guy on because you don't like confrontation is much worse), but it still hits the ego. <BR/><BR/>After a while, it gets to be a bit like going to the dentist. You know it's a good thing, but the prospect of pain makes it something you don't necessarily want to go hunting for. (The fact that we keep trying should be a huge boost to your self-esteems.)<BR/><BR/>You think it's easy? Ask a guy you actually like out. Just once. (Not saying you should chase him relentlessly -- most guys don't like that either.)<BR/><BR/>So if you want a guy to ask you out, flirt with him enough that he knows you'll say yes. And not so much that he wonders about your career. After all, wearing a list of guys you know who you are interested in would be much simpler, but just a bit too weird.<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://img171.imageshack.us/my.php?image=luann290gbh9.gif" REL="nofollow">Relevant comic</A>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13684790.post-57905638870493855612007-09-06T19:25:00.000-06:002007-09-06T19:25:00.000-06:00I think we should use object lessons like my mom d...I think we should use object lessons like my mom did. We were cleaning garbage off of the roadside for YW, and she found not one, but two forks. And then decided to bring them home. I said GROSS, an told her that that was probably a really bad idea, because who knows where that fork had been? Then on Sunday she gave a talk, and used the forks as an analogy for the atonement. Yes, those forks had been by the road for a really, really long time. Yes they were in the dirt and who knows what other nasties, but then she boiled them in hot water, but them through the dishwasher, and they were able to be used again. <BR/><BR/>I thought it was good, anyway.Debbie Barrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03119207763941673358noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13684790.post-37100216567502511862007-09-06T17:38:00.000-06:002007-09-06T17:38:00.000-06:00Ooops! Sorry about misspelling colossal.Ooops! Sorry about misspelling colossal.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com